14th July 2013
Dear Bro Ray
SOP in Red, Sister ... in blue
Re: Sister.......
Greetings to the church in the Philippines. Thank you for the email and my apologies for the delay in getting back to you. The following is a quick commentary re: Sister..... statements [in blue, emphasis in bold mine].
Remember:
1. “Christ was a real man; He gave proof of His humility in becoming a man.” 1SM 244.1
2. “He was human, as you are.” {14MR 334.2}
3. “A human body and a human mind were His.” . . . {CTr 213.5}
4. “In Christ were united the divine and the human--the Creator and the creature. The nature of God, whose law had been transgressed, and the nature of Adam, the transgressor, meet in Jesus--the Son of God, and the Son of man.” (The SDA Bible Commentary, Ellen G. White comments, vol. 7, pp. 925, 926).
5. “His human nature was created; it did not even possess the angelic powers. It was human, identical with our own.” {CTr 213.4}
6. “He had not taken on Him even the nature of the angels, but humanity, perfectly identical with our own nature, except without the taint of sin.” . . . {CTr 208.6}
7. “Just that which you may be, He was in human nature.” (Letter 106, 1896). {5BC 1124.2}
8. Adam had the advantage over Christ in that, when he was assailed by the tempter, none of the effects of sin were upon him. He stood in the strength of perfect manhood, possessing the full vigor of mind and body. He was surrounded with the glories of Eden and was in daily communion with heavenly beings. It was not thus with Jesus when He entered the wilderness to cope with Satan. . . . {CTr 217.4}
9. When Adam was assailed by the tempter, none of the effects of sin were upon him, but he was surrounded by the glories of Eden. But it was not thus with Jesus; for, bearing the infirmities of degenerate humanity, He entered the wilderness to cope with the mighty foe, that He might lift man up from the lowest depths of his degradation. Alone He was to tread the path of temptation and exercise self-control stronger than hunger, ambition, or death. {BEcho, November 15, 1892 par. 1}
1. Sister.......
"This topic is one of the most difficult to discuss because both sides of the controversy use the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy to prove their point. I have come to the conclusion that it shouldn’t be difficult if we only use basic Bible knowledge and common sense. This not an insult to anyone’s intelligent—those who would go deep into the original language, hermeneutics, etc. Kudos to them!"
Like sister...., I do not believe it is a difficult topic if one obeys the basic rules of interpretation - line upon line, here a little, there a little and reason things according to that rule, taking the weight of evidence as our guide. One should allow the Spirit of Prophecy to interpret itself and thus avoid any seeming contradiction of the testimonies.
With due respect to sister......, it is not so much “kudos to them” but “a fruitful field, which will repay the searcher who digs deep for hidden truth.”
“The humanity of the Son of God is everything to us. It is the golden chain that binds our souls to Christ, and through Christ to God. This is to be our study. Christ was a real man; He gave proof of His humility in becoming a man. Yet He was God in the flesh. When we approach this subject, we would do well to heed the words spoken by Christ to Moses at the burning bush, "Put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground" (Exodus 3:5). We should come to this study with the humility of a learner, with a contrite heart. And the study of the incarnation of Christ is a fruitful field, which will repay the searcher who digs deep for hidden truth.” {1SM 244.1}
2. Sister.....
Jesus never lost connection with His Heavenly Father—from Heaven, to Mary’s womb where He was conceived of the Holy Ghost, and on to the outside world. He grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon Him." Luke 2:40, 52. He developed a righteous character that was in total harmony with His Father’s Law. In fact, His character was a transcript of the Law. Jesus began, as Brendan Paul said, “born again.”
“BORN BORN AGAIN”
There was only one way Jesus could have been “born” or incarnated into the human race - by the Spirit of the most High. Christ was only “born” twice, once in heaven when he was brought forth and the second time at His incarnation. On both occasions His heavenly Father brought him forth, the second time through the Spirit. The only difference between heaven and earth was that He took on our sinful, fallen, carnal human nature when he was “born again” as a member of the human family. I understand what the lady is trying to say but it is a poor rendition of the phrase “born again”. Others call it “born born again”. It tends to blur the reality of the great mystery of God manifest in the flesh by saying He was “born born again”. As far as Jesus is concerned the phrase “born, born again” is not a good one, simply because He, who was divine was “born again” as a human with a sinful fallen human nature and has nothing to do with what Jesus told Nicodemus, that unless we are born again of the Spirit we cannot see the kingdom of heaven. Hence Christ’s being “born again” was as a man, to partake of our sinful humanity, for Him that is what it means to be born again, get the point? He became the Son of God in a new sense when He was “born again” as a man. He started off being DIVINE and was “born again” as one of us, the Divine nature mysteriously and inseparably one with the fallen human nature.
As we saw in the previous email, being “born again” from our perspective as humans is to partake of the divine nature. We, who are sinners, transgressors of God’s law need to be born again of His Spirit in order to be overcomers. The human nature connecting with the divine and thus crucifying our “sarx”, our carnal nature in the process.
Christ, unlike us, did no sin while living life in our carnal nature and like the rest of us, in His humanity and as a result of it, had to partake of the Divine nature himself. He grew in Spirit, ie. was filled with the Spirit. This has nothing to do with the mechanism of His birth, however, mysterious and unexplainable that is by finite minds: “In His humanity He was a partaker of the divine nature. In His incarnation He gained in a new sense the title of the Son of God. Said the angel to Mary, "The power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God" (Luke 1:35). While the Son of a human being, He became the Son of God in a new sense. Thus He stood in our world--the Son of God, yet allied by birth to the human race. {1SM 226.2}
Therefore, do not let this “born born again” phrase detract from the fact that He took our carnal nature when He was “born again” into the earthly family and the fact that He DID NO SIN in that carnal nature even to Calvary. The phrase “born born again” is a distraction and in my opinion misleading. He was only literally “born again” as the son of man and became the son of God in a new sense, He was not “born born again” as nice as that might sound – His divine nature was His starting point. He was “born again” as human nature, the two natures “distinct” but “mysteriously blended” and “inseparably one”. And is the key to victory over temptation and sin, hence the humanity of Christ is everything to us. He came to our level and connected our weakness, our sinful nature, our carnal mind which was not subject to the law, with divine power in order that we, like Him, might overcome as He, a real man with a sinful nature, overcame.
3. Sister.....
With man, that’s not the case. He lost connection with His Creator when he transgressed His commandments. As a result his nature became carnal which according to Romans 8:7 is enmity against God and is not subject to His Law. Man needs to be born again to partake of the divine nature. This born-again experience usually happens years after excess baggage of sin has accumulated.
We have dealt with this in my previous reply. Remember the definition of the “nature of man” includes the threefold characteristics of the physical and the intellectual and moral powers of the mind: "The nature of man is threefold, and the training enjoined by Solomon comprehends the right development of the physical, intellectual, and moral powers. ..". {CG 39.1} The carnal nature is these powers tainted by Adam’ sin and, therefore, called the carnal nature, sinful nature or fallen nature.
The “excess baggage of sin” is a result of our sinful nature which in and of itself made it impossible for man to render obedience to the law of God. The part of our sinful nature which could not render obedience to the Law was our carnal mind. And Jesus took our sinful nature – the whole thing and not just a part of our human nature. This is what folk are fighting against and are playing into the hands of Antichrist, in denying He was fully man as far as man’s nature is concerned with the exception that He never once tainted His human nature with sin on His part.
Note: “After the fall, it had been impossible for man with his sinful nature to render obedience to the law of God, had not Christ, by the offer of his own life, purchased the right to lift up the race where they could once more work in harmony with its requirements.” {RH, September 27, 1881 par. 11}
“It was impossible for man to redeem himself, and this was the reason that Jesus took human nature upon himself, that through humanity his divine nature might reach and lift up humanity.” {ST, June 17, 1889 par. 8}
Let’s reason this through:
1. Man possesses a sinful nature which of itself is impossible to keep God’s Law, impossible to render obedience to that law or in other words, not subject to the law.
2. The nature of man is threefold comprising the physical and the intellectual and moral powers of the mind.
3. One normally renders obedience as a result of thought processes / choices made in the mind.
4. Hence the part of the sinful nature of man which could not render obedience to the law was the MIND of man.
5. The scripture tells us that the carnal MIND is not subject to the law of God. But the SOP tells us our sinful nature could not render obedience to the law.
6. And we are told Christ took our sinful nature upon His divine nature and that nature included the degenerate physical body and carnal mind of man.
7. Hence Jesus took our sinful nature with its carnal mind as part of that nature.
8. The problem is folk have defined Sin AS nature or Nature IS sin and come up with all sorts of renditions of Christ’s sinful human nature which basically denies He was ever human at all. Denies that He ever came in our “sarx” which includes the mind of man and that is the doctrine of antichrist.
The following are the various views of what the [SINFUL] NATURE means to different folk:
1. The nature of man is only the PHYSICAL BODY (David Clayton).
2. The nature of man is only the HUMAN MIND (Lydia Haga).
3. The human nature of Christ is the PHYSICAL BODY + DIVINE MIND.
4. Truth is, human nature is the PHYSICAL, INTELLECTUAL & MORAL POWERS.
4.Sister.....
Human nature is the MIND with its higher powers and lower powers. The higher powers consist of the Will, Conscience, and Reason. The lower powers consist of the Emotions, Passions, and Appetite. As the Will is the governing power in the nature of man [the power of decision, or of choice and brings all the other faculties under its sway], Jesus, from the get-go, put His human Will on the side of obedience and He never sinned. The lower powers of His mind were always under subjection to the higher powers. He didn't have any predilection to sin because He NEVER sinned. He trusted wholly on His Heavenly Father and never, for a moment, LOST CONNECTION with Him.
Ms ...... needs to review her position that “Human nature is the MIND with its higher powers and lower powers.” because as we have seen, human nature is not just the mind in isolation but includes the physical and intellectual and moral powers of the mind.
"The nature of man is threefold, and the training enjoined by Solomon comprehends the right development of the physical, intellectual, and moral powers. ..". {CG 39.1}
Jesus did not just take a mere body either as others would have it: “He did not have a mere semblance of a body, but He took human nature, participating in the life of humanity. . . .” {LHU 345.2}
“It was in the order of God that Christ should take upon himself the form and nature of fallen man, that he might be made perfect through suffering, and himself endure the strength of Satan's fierce temptations, that he might understand how to succor those who should be tempted.” {2SP 39.3}
Jesus took the physical FORM of our nature and the non-physical part (intellectual & moral powers) or the mind of our nature as well.
5. Sister......
"Christ was to take His position at the head of humanity by taking the nature but not the sinfulness of man." SDA BC v7, 925.
Christ took our sinful nature but He did not take the sinfulness of man, (i.e. He never sinned). He was not a transgressor of the law. The Spirit of Prophecy states this in another way:
“In taking upon Himself man’s nature in its FALLEN CONDITION, Christ did not in the least participate in its SIN.” E.G. White ST June 9, 1898
He took our FALLEN nature but did not participate in what that nature naturally does and that is to SIN, ie. He did not participate in the sinfulness of man.
“It was in the order of God that Christ should take upon himself the FORM AND NATURE OF FALLEN MAN, that he might be made perfect through suffering, and himself endure the strength of Satan’s temptations, that he might the better know how to succor those who should be tempted.” E.G. White, Second Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, 12-31-72.
Christ took our fallen human nature but not our sinfulness because He never sinned. The whole passage Lydia is referring to is as follows:
“In taking upon Himself man’s nature in its fallen condition, Christ did not in the least participate in its sin. He was subject to the infirmities and weaknesses by which man is encompassed, “that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.” He was touched with the feeling of our infirmities, and was in all points tempted like as we are. And yet He “knew no sin.” He was the Lamb “without blemish and without spot.” Could Satan in the least particular have tempted Christ to sin, he would have bruised the Saviour’s head. As it was, he could only touch His heel. Had the head of Christ been touched, the hope of the human race would have perished. Divine wrath would have come upon Christ as it came upon Adam. . . . We should have no misgivings in regard to the perfect sinlessness of the human nature of Christ.--The SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 5, p. 1131. {7ABC 447.3}
He did NOT SIN while living life in our sinful fallen nature and therefore, did not taint His human nature with sin on His part like we have. He did not “participate” in sin, hence we should have no MISGIVINGS in regard to the perfect sinlessness of the sinful human nature of Christ. He was holy.
6. "Christ is called the second Adam. In purity and holiness, connected with God and beloved by God, He began WHERE THE FIRST ADAM BEGAN. Willingly He passed over the ground where Adam fell, and redeemed Adam's failure." The Youth's Instructor, 06/02/1898.
The statement above in (6) says nothing about the nature of Christ. The reader might think that's what it says. But this is not the case. The SOP is saying that Christ began where the first Adam began. And the question is, began what? Christ met the same TEMPTATIONS as the first Adam did. Christ’s victory over temptation has to begin where Adam began when he fell else He could not be Adam’s savior. Note in the quote below, the SOP says, Adam fell, and Jesus by passing over the ground where Adam stumbled and fell, redeemed fallen human beings and by living a sinless life He testified that every fallen son and daughter of Adam can resist the temptations of the one who first brought sin into the world.
“Adam fell, and He who was partaker of the Father's glory before the world was, laid aside His royal robe and kingly crown, and stepped down from His high authority to become a Babe in Bethlehem, that by passing over the ground where Adam stumbled and fell, He might redeem fallen human beings. He subjected Himself to all the temptations that the enemy brings against men and women; and all the assaults of Satan could not make Him swerve from His loyalty to the Father. By living a sinless life He testified that every son and daughter of Adam can resist the temptations of the one who first brought sin into the world. {1SM 226.1}
The passage Lydia referred to in (6), does not even mention Christ’s human nature. That is an interpretation which has been read into the passage.
Note: “The great work of redemption could only be carried out by the Redeemer taking the place of FALLEN ADAM...He would take MAN’S FALLEN NATURE.” E.G. White, Review & Herald, 24 Feb, 1874.
IF the words, “passed over the ground where ADAM fell” meant that Christ took Adam’s UNFALLEN SINLESS nature then the statement: “...by passing over the ground which man must travel...Christ prepared the way for US to gain the victory” (ST 27 May, 1897) would mean that Christ took our FALLEN nature which would be a contradiction of the testimonies. Interpretations that cause her to contradict herself are to be avoided. When one realizes that the original statement Lydia referred to, concerns the TEMPTATIONS of Christ rather than His NATURE, then there is no problem and no contradiction of the testimonies.
7. "He [Christ] vanquished Satan IN THE SAME NATURE over which in Eden Satan obtained the victory." SDA BC v5, p 1108; The Youth's Instructor, 4/25/1901.
Again, one-liners like the above in (7) are very misleading especially when we consider the many statements she penned concerning Christ taking our sinful human nature. The complete passage is as follows: “He vanquished Satan in the same nature over which in Eden Satan obtained the victory. The enemy was overcome by Christ in His human nature. The power of the Saviour's Godhead was hidden. He overcame in human nature, relying upon God for power. This is the privilege of all. In proportion to our faith will be our victory” (YI April 25, 1901). {5BC 1108.6}
The passage is contrasting human nature with Divine nature (bracketted comment mine). “The enemy was overcome by Christ in His human nature. The power of the Saviour's Godhead (Divine nature) was hidden. As to what sort of human nature He possessed is revealed in the passage itself because it says, it is our privilege to overcome in the human nature in which Christ overcame: “This is the privilege of all.” It is NOT our privilege to overcome in the UNFALLEN nature of Adam but it is our privilege to overcome in human nature “which we now have.”, ie. sinful, fallen, human nature, relying upon God for power. Christ did not come to this world to take on UNFALLEN human nature. No such thing was in existence 4000yrs after Adam’s fall for Him to unite to His divine nature. As we saw previously Adam had the advantage over Christ as far as His nature was concerned ie, vigor of mind and body were concerned: “Adam had the advantage over Christ, in that when he was assailed by the tempter, none of the effects of sin were upon him. He stood in the strength of perfect manhood, possessing the full vigor of mind and body. … It was not thus with Jesus when He entered the wilderness to cope with Satan”
“The Lord now demands that every son and daughter of Adam, through faith in Jesus Christ, serve Him in human nature which we now have. The Lord Jesus has bridged the gulf that sin has made. He has connected earth with heaven, and finite man with the infinite God. Jesus, the world's Redeemer, could only keep the commandments of God in the same way that humanity can keep them. {OHC 48.4}
8. Sister...
"Although Jesus came to our world after 4000 years of degeneration of the race, the Spirit of Prophecy describes “His fallen nature” in terms of His physical being. He was tired, hungry, thirsty, and was refreshed by sleep. He did not come in the size of Adam (12-15 feet tall) but in the size of the men of His time. We're also told that “His body was NOT marred by any defect; it was strong and healthy. And throughout His lifetime He lived in conformity to nature's law, physically as well as spiritually.” Desire of Ages, page 50-51.
As noted previously, Jesus took on a degenerate physical body and the mental and moral powers of the mind weakened by 4000yrs of sin. Hence Ms Haga’s conclusions are not in sync with the inspired definition of the “nature of man”. Christ did not just take the physical side of fallen man but the mental and moral powers as well without the vigor of mind and body that Adam possessed pre-fall. He took our mind and body weakened by four thousand years of sin.
“He took the nature of man, with all its possibilities. We have nothing to endure that He has not endured. . . . Adam had the advantage over Christ, in that when he was assailed by the tempter, none of the effects of sin were upon him. He stood in the strength of perfect manhood, possessing the full vigor of mind and body. He was surrounded with the glories of Eden, and was in daily communion with heavenly beings. It was not thus with Jesus when He entered the wilderness to cope with Satan. For four thousand years the race had been decreasing in physical strength, in mental power, in moral worth; and Christ took upon Him the infirmities of degenerate humanity. Only thus could He rescue man from the lowest depths of degradation.” --Ms. 113, 1902, pp. 1, 2 (See DA 117). {17MR 28.4}
9. Sister......
So how was Jesus tempted in all points as we are? "It was a difficult task for the Prince of life to carry out the plan which He had undertaken for the salvation of man, in clothing His divinity with humanity. He had received honor in the heavenly courts, and was familiar with absolute power. IT WAS AS DIFFICULT FOR HIM TO KEEP THE LEVEL OF HUMANITY AS FOR MAN TO RISE ABOVE THE LOW LEVEL OF THEIR DEPRAVED NATURES, AND BE PARTAKERS OF THE DIVINE NATURE." SDA BC v 7A p 655.
Another quote from the same reference on page 650: "To keep His glory veiled as the child of a fallen race, this was the most severe discipline to which the Prince of life could subject Himself."
In other words, just as it is difficult for us to keep our natural sinful carnal nature crucified and buried and manifest our new nature received when we were born again, Jesus experienced the same thing but in reverse. It was difficult for Jesus to keep the level of humanityand not manifest His natural nature which He had set aside when He became a man.
"...when Christ was treated with contempt, there came to Him a strong temptation to manifest His divine character. By a word, by a look, He could compel His persecutors to confess that He was Lord above kings and rulers, priests and temple. But it was His difficult task to keep to the position He had chosen as one with humanity." (Desire of Ages, p 700).
Why was it “DIFFICULT FOR HIM TO KEEP THE LEVEL OF HUMANITY”, “to keep to the position He had chosen as one with humanity."?
The quotes tells us there was something Christ took upon Himself that was difficult for Him to maintain, something strangely disagreeable one might say, about Christ’s human nature that he found it hard to keep it and not manifest his own divine nature.
The above SOP statements only enhance the fact that Christ took our sinful nature, reason being, it was a nature that in and of itself was impossible to keep the law of God, ie. not subject to the law and hence was difficult for Jesus to maintain that sort of nature, a nature which was totally contrary to his Divine nature which was the very embodiment the law. The very character of love - the fulfilling of the law.
He had a divine nature which was always in harmony with the law being the law giver himself and to take on sinful human nature with the carnal mind as the very “capital” of that nature which rendered it impossible for the sinful nature to keep the law was difficult for him to maintain as she says. The temptation was to give it up. It was contrary to his very being yet He stayed true to His promise for the sake of man. It is the mystery of God that He connected a nature which in and of itself was impossible to keep the law with a nature that always kept the law, a nature that was one with the law. But He did it to condemn sin in the sarx (flesh), to condemn the sinfulness of our carnal nature, to condemn the idea that fallen man could not keep the law of God and put paid to Satan’s lie in accusing God that no son or daughter of Adam could keep the law. And by His sinful human nature, Jesus was the son of FALLEN Adam exposing Satan’s bluff and misrepresentation of God’s character.
Jesus is the mystery of God manifest in the flesh, there is none like him, a contradiction of sorts in that He possessed a mysteriously blended nature described variously as an unfallen nature and a fallen nature, a divine nature and a human nature, a sinless nature and a sinful nature, reflecting His condescension as the “Son of man” while always the “Son of God”.
Hope this helps.
Blessings to the Church and to your family. Looking forward to catching up at camp.
Rob
www.thewordwasmadeflesh.org
Dear Bro Ray
SOP in Red, Sister ... in blue
Re: Sister.......
Greetings to the church in the Philippines. Thank you for the email and my apologies for the delay in getting back to you. The following is a quick commentary re: Sister..... statements [in blue, emphasis in bold mine].
Remember:
1. “Christ was a real man; He gave proof of His humility in becoming a man.” 1SM 244.1
2. “He was human, as you are.” {14MR 334.2}
3. “A human body and a human mind were His.” . . . {CTr 213.5}
4. “In Christ were united the divine and the human--the Creator and the creature. The nature of God, whose law had been transgressed, and the nature of Adam, the transgressor, meet in Jesus--the Son of God, and the Son of man.” (The SDA Bible Commentary, Ellen G. White comments, vol. 7, pp. 925, 926).
5. “His human nature was created; it did not even possess the angelic powers. It was human, identical with our own.” {CTr 213.4}
6. “He had not taken on Him even the nature of the angels, but humanity, perfectly identical with our own nature, except without the taint of sin.” . . . {CTr 208.6}
7. “Just that which you may be, He was in human nature.” (Letter 106, 1896). {5BC 1124.2}
8. Adam had the advantage over Christ in that, when he was assailed by the tempter, none of the effects of sin were upon him. He stood in the strength of perfect manhood, possessing the full vigor of mind and body. He was surrounded with the glories of Eden and was in daily communion with heavenly beings. It was not thus with Jesus when He entered the wilderness to cope with Satan. . . . {CTr 217.4}
9. When Adam was assailed by the tempter, none of the effects of sin were upon him, but he was surrounded by the glories of Eden. But it was not thus with Jesus; for, bearing the infirmities of degenerate humanity, He entered the wilderness to cope with the mighty foe, that He might lift man up from the lowest depths of his degradation. Alone He was to tread the path of temptation and exercise self-control stronger than hunger, ambition, or death. {BEcho, November 15, 1892 par. 1}
1. Sister.......
"This topic is one of the most difficult to discuss because both sides of the controversy use the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy to prove their point. I have come to the conclusion that it shouldn’t be difficult if we only use basic Bible knowledge and common sense. This not an insult to anyone’s intelligent—those who would go deep into the original language, hermeneutics, etc. Kudos to them!"
Like sister...., I do not believe it is a difficult topic if one obeys the basic rules of interpretation - line upon line, here a little, there a little and reason things according to that rule, taking the weight of evidence as our guide. One should allow the Spirit of Prophecy to interpret itself and thus avoid any seeming contradiction of the testimonies.
With due respect to sister......, it is not so much “kudos to them” but “a fruitful field, which will repay the searcher who digs deep for hidden truth.”
“The humanity of the Son of God is everything to us. It is the golden chain that binds our souls to Christ, and through Christ to God. This is to be our study. Christ was a real man; He gave proof of His humility in becoming a man. Yet He was God in the flesh. When we approach this subject, we would do well to heed the words spoken by Christ to Moses at the burning bush, "Put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground" (Exodus 3:5). We should come to this study with the humility of a learner, with a contrite heart. And the study of the incarnation of Christ is a fruitful field, which will repay the searcher who digs deep for hidden truth.” {1SM 244.1}
2. Sister.....
Jesus never lost connection with His Heavenly Father—from Heaven, to Mary’s womb where He was conceived of the Holy Ghost, and on to the outside world. He grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon Him." Luke 2:40, 52. He developed a righteous character that was in total harmony with His Father’s Law. In fact, His character was a transcript of the Law. Jesus began, as Brendan Paul said, “born again.”
“BORN BORN AGAIN”
There was only one way Jesus could have been “born” or incarnated into the human race - by the Spirit of the most High. Christ was only “born” twice, once in heaven when he was brought forth and the second time at His incarnation. On both occasions His heavenly Father brought him forth, the second time through the Spirit. The only difference between heaven and earth was that He took on our sinful, fallen, carnal human nature when he was “born again” as a member of the human family. I understand what the lady is trying to say but it is a poor rendition of the phrase “born again”. Others call it “born born again”. It tends to blur the reality of the great mystery of God manifest in the flesh by saying He was “born born again”. As far as Jesus is concerned the phrase “born, born again” is not a good one, simply because He, who was divine was “born again” as a human with a sinful fallen human nature and has nothing to do with what Jesus told Nicodemus, that unless we are born again of the Spirit we cannot see the kingdom of heaven. Hence Christ’s being “born again” was as a man, to partake of our sinful humanity, for Him that is what it means to be born again, get the point? He became the Son of God in a new sense when He was “born again” as a man. He started off being DIVINE and was “born again” as one of us, the Divine nature mysteriously and inseparably one with the fallen human nature.
As we saw in the previous email, being “born again” from our perspective as humans is to partake of the divine nature. We, who are sinners, transgressors of God’s law need to be born again of His Spirit in order to be overcomers. The human nature connecting with the divine and thus crucifying our “sarx”, our carnal nature in the process.
Christ, unlike us, did no sin while living life in our carnal nature and like the rest of us, in His humanity and as a result of it, had to partake of the Divine nature himself. He grew in Spirit, ie. was filled with the Spirit. This has nothing to do with the mechanism of His birth, however, mysterious and unexplainable that is by finite minds: “In His humanity He was a partaker of the divine nature. In His incarnation He gained in a new sense the title of the Son of God. Said the angel to Mary, "The power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God" (Luke 1:35). While the Son of a human being, He became the Son of God in a new sense. Thus He stood in our world--the Son of God, yet allied by birth to the human race. {1SM 226.2}
Therefore, do not let this “born born again” phrase detract from the fact that He took our carnal nature when He was “born again” into the earthly family and the fact that He DID NO SIN in that carnal nature even to Calvary. The phrase “born born again” is a distraction and in my opinion misleading. He was only literally “born again” as the son of man and became the son of God in a new sense, He was not “born born again” as nice as that might sound – His divine nature was His starting point. He was “born again” as human nature, the two natures “distinct” but “mysteriously blended” and “inseparably one”. And is the key to victory over temptation and sin, hence the humanity of Christ is everything to us. He came to our level and connected our weakness, our sinful nature, our carnal mind which was not subject to the law, with divine power in order that we, like Him, might overcome as He, a real man with a sinful nature, overcame.
3. Sister.....
With man, that’s not the case. He lost connection with His Creator when he transgressed His commandments. As a result his nature became carnal which according to Romans 8:7 is enmity against God and is not subject to His Law. Man needs to be born again to partake of the divine nature. This born-again experience usually happens years after excess baggage of sin has accumulated.
We have dealt with this in my previous reply. Remember the definition of the “nature of man” includes the threefold characteristics of the physical and the intellectual and moral powers of the mind: "The nature of man is threefold, and the training enjoined by Solomon comprehends the right development of the physical, intellectual, and moral powers. ..". {CG 39.1} The carnal nature is these powers tainted by Adam’ sin and, therefore, called the carnal nature, sinful nature or fallen nature.
The “excess baggage of sin” is a result of our sinful nature which in and of itself made it impossible for man to render obedience to the law of God. The part of our sinful nature which could not render obedience to the Law was our carnal mind. And Jesus took our sinful nature – the whole thing and not just a part of our human nature. This is what folk are fighting against and are playing into the hands of Antichrist, in denying He was fully man as far as man’s nature is concerned with the exception that He never once tainted His human nature with sin on His part.
Note: “After the fall, it had been impossible for man with his sinful nature to render obedience to the law of God, had not Christ, by the offer of his own life, purchased the right to lift up the race where they could once more work in harmony with its requirements.” {RH, September 27, 1881 par. 11}
“It was impossible for man to redeem himself, and this was the reason that Jesus took human nature upon himself, that through humanity his divine nature might reach and lift up humanity.” {ST, June 17, 1889 par. 8}
Let’s reason this through:
1. Man possesses a sinful nature which of itself is impossible to keep God’s Law, impossible to render obedience to that law or in other words, not subject to the law.
2. The nature of man is threefold comprising the physical and the intellectual and moral powers of the mind.
3. One normally renders obedience as a result of thought processes / choices made in the mind.
4. Hence the part of the sinful nature of man which could not render obedience to the law was the MIND of man.
5. The scripture tells us that the carnal MIND is not subject to the law of God. But the SOP tells us our sinful nature could not render obedience to the law.
6. And we are told Christ took our sinful nature upon His divine nature and that nature included the degenerate physical body and carnal mind of man.
7. Hence Jesus took our sinful nature with its carnal mind as part of that nature.
8. The problem is folk have defined Sin AS nature or Nature IS sin and come up with all sorts of renditions of Christ’s sinful human nature which basically denies He was ever human at all. Denies that He ever came in our “sarx” which includes the mind of man and that is the doctrine of antichrist.
The following are the various views of what the [SINFUL] NATURE means to different folk:
1. The nature of man is only the PHYSICAL BODY (David Clayton).
2. The nature of man is only the HUMAN MIND (Lydia Haga).
3. The human nature of Christ is the PHYSICAL BODY + DIVINE MIND.
4. Truth is, human nature is the PHYSICAL, INTELLECTUAL & MORAL POWERS.
4.Sister.....
Human nature is the MIND with its higher powers and lower powers. The higher powers consist of the Will, Conscience, and Reason. The lower powers consist of the Emotions, Passions, and Appetite. As the Will is the governing power in the nature of man [the power of decision, or of choice and brings all the other faculties under its sway], Jesus, from the get-go, put His human Will on the side of obedience and He never sinned. The lower powers of His mind were always under subjection to the higher powers. He didn't have any predilection to sin because He NEVER sinned. He trusted wholly on His Heavenly Father and never, for a moment, LOST CONNECTION with Him.
Ms ...... needs to review her position that “Human nature is the MIND with its higher powers and lower powers.” because as we have seen, human nature is not just the mind in isolation but includes the physical and intellectual and moral powers of the mind.
"The nature of man is threefold, and the training enjoined by Solomon comprehends the right development of the physical, intellectual, and moral powers. ..". {CG 39.1}
Jesus did not just take a mere body either as others would have it: “He did not have a mere semblance of a body, but He took human nature, participating in the life of humanity. . . .” {LHU 345.2}
“It was in the order of God that Christ should take upon himself the form and nature of fallen man, that he might be made perfect through suffering, and himself endure the strength of Satan's fierce temptations, that he might understand how to succor those who should be tempted.” {2SP 39.3}
Jesus took the physical FORM of our nature and the non-physical part (intellectual & moral powers) or the mind of our nature as well.
5. Sister......
"Christ was to take His position at the head of humanity by taking the nature but not the sinfulness of man." SDA BC v7, 925.
Christ took our sinful nature but He did not take the sinfulness of man, (i.e. He never sinned). He was not a transgressor of the law. The Spirit of Prophecy states this in another way:
“In taking upon Himself man’s nature in its FALLEN CONDITION, Christ did not in the least participate in its SIN.” E.G. White ST June 9, 1898
He took our FALLEN nature but did not participate in what that nature naturally does and that is to SIN, ie. He did not participate in the sinfulness of man.
“It was in the order of God that Christ should take upon himself the FORM AND NATURE OF FALLEN MAN, that he might be made perfect through suffering, and himself endure the strength of Satan’s temptations, that he might the better know how to succor those who should be tempted.” E.G. White, Second Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, 12-31-72.
Christ took our fallen human nature but not our sinfulness because He never sinned. The whole passage Lydia is referring to is as follows:
“In taking upon Himself man’s nature in its fallen condition, Christ did not in the least participate in its sin. He was subject to the infirmities and weaknesses by which man is encompassed, “that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.” He was touched with the feeling of our infirmities, and was in all points tempted like as we are. And yet He “knew no sin.” He was the Lamb “without blemish and without spot.” Could Satan in the least particular have tempted Christ to sin, he would have bruised the Saviour’s head. As it was, he could only touch His heel. Had the head of Christ been touched, the hope of the human race would have perished. Divine wrath would have come upon Christ as it came upon Adam. . . . We should have no misgivings in regard to the perfect sinlessness of the human nature of Christ.--The SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 5, p. 1131. {7ABC 447.3}
He did NOT SIN while living life in our sinful fallen nature and therefore, did not taint His human nature with sin on His part like we have. He did not “participate” in sin, hence we should have no MISGIVINGS in regard to the perfect sinlessness of the sinful human nature of Christ. He was holy.
6. "Christ is called the second Adam. In purity and holiness, connected with God and beloved by God, He began WHERE THE FIRST ADAM BEGAN. Willingly He passed over the ground where Adam fell, and redeemed Adam's failure." The Youth's Instructor, 06/02/1898.
The statement above in (6) says nothing about the nature of Christ. The reader might think that's what it says. But this is not the case. The SOP is saying that Christ began where the first Adam began. And the question is, began what? Christ met the same TEMPTATIONS as the first Adam did. Christ’s victory over temptation has to begin where Adam began when he fell else He could not be Adam’s savior. Note in the quote below, the SOP says, Adam fell, and Jesus by passing over the ground where Adam stumbled and fell, redeemed fallen human beings and by living a sinless life He testified that every fallen son and daughter of Adam can resist the temptations of the one who first brought sin into the world.
“Adam fell, and He who was partaker of the Father's glory before the world was, laid aside His royal robe and kingly crown, and stepped down from His high authority to become a Babe in Bethlehem, that by passing over the ground where Adam stumbled and fell, He might redeem fallen human beings. He subjected Himself to all the temptations that the enemy brings against men and women; and all the assaults of Satan could not make Him swerve from His loyalty to the Father. By living a sinless life He testified that every son and daughter of Adam can resist the temptations of the one who first brought sin into the world. {1SM 226.1}
The passage Lydia referred to in (6), does not even mention Christ’s human nature. That is an interpretation which has been read into the passage.
Note: “The great work of redemption could only be carried out by the Redeemer taking the place of FALLEN ADAM...He would take MAN’S FALLEN NATURE.” E.G. White, Review & Herald, 24 Feb, 1874.
IF the words, “passed over the ground where ADAM fell” meant that Christ took Adam’s UNFALLEN SINLESS nature then the statement: “...by passing over the ground which man must travel...Christ prepared the way for US to gain the victory” (ST 27 May, 1897) would mean that Christ took our FALLEN nature which would be a contradiction of the testimonies. Interpretations that cause her to contradict herself are to be avoided. When one realizes that the original statement Lydia referred to, concerns the TEMPTATIONS of Christ rather than His NATURE, then there is no problem and no contradiction of the testimonies.
7. "He [Christ] vanquished Satan IN THE SAME NATURE over which in Eden Satan obtained the victory." SDA BC v5, p 1108; The Youth's Instructor, 4/25/1901.
Again, one-liners like the above in (7) are very misleading especially when we consider the many statements she penned concerning Christ taking our sinful human nature. The complete passage is as follows: “He vanquished Satan in the same nature over which in Eden Satan obtained the victory. The enemy was overcome by Christ in His human nature. The power of the Saviour's Godhead was hidden. He overcame in human nature, relying upon God for power. This is the privilege of all. In proportion to our faith will be our victory” (YI April 25, 1901). {5BC 1108.6}
The passage is contrasting human nature with Divine nature (bracketted comment mine). “The enemy was overcome by Christ in His human nature. The power of the Saviour's Godhead (Divine nature) was hidden. As to what sort of human nature He possessed is revealed in the passage itself because it says, it is our privilege to overcome in the human nature in which Christ overcame: “This is the privilege of all.” It is NOT our privilege to overcome in the UNFALLEN nature of Adam but it is our privilege to overcome in human nature “which we now have.”, ie. sinful, fallen, human nature, relying upon God for power. Christ did not come to this world to take on UNFALLEN human nature. No such thing was in existence 4000yrs after Adam’s fall for Him to unite to His divine nature. As we saw previously Adam had the advantage over Christ as far as His nature was concerned ie, vigor of mind and body were concerned: “Adam had the advantage over Christ, in that when he was assailed by the tempter, none of the effects of sin were upon him. He stood in the strength of perfect manhood, possessing the full vigor of mind and body. … It was not thus with Jesus when He entered the wilderness to cope with Satan”
“The Lord now demands that every son and daughter of Adam, through faith in Jesus Christ, serve Him in human nature which we now have. The Lord Jesus has bridged the gulf that sin has made. He has connected earth with heaven, and finite man with the infinite God. Jesus, the world's Redeemer, could only keep the commandments of God in the same way that humanity can keep them. {OHC 48.4}
8. Sister...
"Although Jesus came to our world after 4000 years of degeneration of the race, the Spirit of Prophecy describes “His fallen nature” in terms of His physical being. He was tired, hungry, thirsty, and was refreshed by sleep. He did not come in the size of Adam (12-15 feet tall) but in the size of the men of His time. We're also told that “His body was NOT marred by any defect; it was strong and healthy. And throughout His lifetime He lived in conformity to nature's law, physically as well as spiritually.” Desire of Ages, page 50-51.
As noted previously, Jesus took on a degenerate physical body and the mental and moral powers of the mind weakened by 4000yrs of sin. Hence Ms Haga’s conclusions are not in sync with the inspired definition of the “nature of man”. Christ did not just take the physical side of fallen man but the mental and moral powers as well without the vigor of mind and body that Adam possessed pre-fall. He took our mind and body weakened by four thousand years of sin.
“He took the nature of man, with all its possibilities. We have nothing to endure that He has not endured. . . . Adam had the advantage over Christ, in that when he was assailed by the tempter, none of the effects of sin were upon him. He stood in the strength of perfect manhood, possessing the full vigor of mind and body. He was surrounded with the glories of Eden, and was in daily communion with heavenly beings. It was not thus with Jesus when He entered the wilderness to cope with Satan. For four thousand years the race had been decreasing in physical strength, in mental power, in moral worth; and Christ took upon Him the infirmities of degenerate humanity. Only thus could He rescue man from the lowest depths of degradation.” --Ms. 113, 1902, pp. 1, 2 (See DA 117). {17MR 28.4}
9. Sister......
So how was Jesus tempted in all points as we are? "It was a difficult task for the Prince of life to carry out the plan which He had undertaken for the salvation of man, in clothing His divinity with humanity. He had received honor in the heavenly courts, and was familiar with absolute power. IT WAS AS DIFFICULT FOR HIM TO KEEP THE LEVEL OF HUMANITY AS FOR MAN TO RISE ABOVE THE LOW LEVEL OF THEIR DEPRAVED NATURES, AND BE PARTAKERS OF THE DIVINE NATURE." SDA BC v 7A p 655.
Another quote from the same reference on page 650: "To keep His glory veiled as the child of a fallen race, this was the most severe discipline to which the Prince of life could subject Himself."
In other words, just as it is difficult for us to keep our natural sinful carnal nature crucified and buried and manifest our new nature received when we were born again, Jesus experienced the same thing but in reverse. It was difficult for Jesus to keep the level of humanityand not manifest His natural nature which He had set aside when He became a man.
"...when Christ was treated with contempt, there came to Him a strong temptation to manifest His divine character. By a word, by a look, He could compel His persecutors to confess that He was Lord above kings and rulers, priests and temple. But it was His difficult task to keep to the position He had chosen as one with humanity." (Desire of Ages, p 700).
Why was it “DIFFICULT FOR HIM TO KEEP THE LEVEL OF HUMANITY”, “to keep to the position He had chosen as one with humanity."?
The quotes tells us there was something Christ took upon Himself that was difficult for Him to maintain, something strangely disagreeable one might say, about Christ’s human nature that he found it hard to keep it and not manifest his own divine nature.
The above SOP statements only enhance the fact that Christ took our sinful nature, reason being, it was a nature that in and of itself was impossible to keep the law of God, ie. not subject to the law and hence was difficult for Jesus to maintain that sort of nature, a nature which was totally contrary to his Divine nature which was the very embodiment the law. The very character of love - the fulfilling of the law.
He had a divine nature which was always in harmony with the law being the law giver himself and to take on sinful human nature with the carnal mind as the very “capital” of that nature which rendered it impossible for the sinful nature to keep the law was difficult for him to maintain as she says. The temptation was to give it up. It was contrary to his very being yet He stayed true to His promise for the sake of man. It is the mystery of God that He connected a nature which in and of itself was impossible to keep the law with a nature that always kept the law, a nature that was one with the law. But He did it to condemn sin in the sarx (flesh), to condemn the sinfulness of our carnal nature, to condemn the idea that fallen man could not keep the law of God and put paid to Satan’s lie in accusing God that no son or daughter of Adam could keep the law. And by His sinful human nature, Jesus was the son of FALLEN Adam exposing Satan’s bluff and misrepresentation of God’s character.
Jesus is the mystery of God manifest in the flesh, there is none like him, a contradiction of sorts in that He possessed a mysteriously blended nature described variously as an unfallen nature and a fallen nature, a divine nature and a human nature, a sinless nature and a sinful nature, reflecting His condescension as the “Son of man” while always the “Son of God”.
Hope this helps.
Blessings to the Church and to your family. Looking forward to catching up at camp.
Rob
www.thewordwasmadeflesh.org
